The TeleWellness Hub Podcast

Ep 72 Ketamine-Assisted Psychotherapy Unveiled Pt 2: Healing Through Ketamine. Jordan Wilson and Tabitha Woodson on Innovative Therapies for Deep-Seated Trauma and Anxiety

• Martamaria Hamilton

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What if you could access a part of yourself that has been hidden by years of trauma and shame? Join us on this compelling episode of the Telewellness Hub podcast as we explore the transformative world of ketamine-assisted psychotherapy with our insightful guests, Jordan Wilson and Tabitha Woodson from LifeWorks Professional Counseling in Virginia. Jordan, a counseling resident, and Tabitha, a licensed professional counselor and veteran, bring their unique perspectives to the table. They share their professional journeys and profound dedication to helping clients reclaim their voices and process deep-seated pains.

You’ll discover how ketamine-assisted therapy can serve as a breakthrough treatment for individuals struggling with severe anxiety and treatment-resistant depression. Our guests explain the mystical, personalized experiences that ketamine facilitates, enabling clients to disarm common defenses and confront their inner turmoil in ways traditional therapies might not. Addressing common apprehensions, such as the fear of the unknown and the difficulty of relinquishing control, Jordan and Tabitha shine a light on the profound sense of hope and relief that this innovative therapy can offer.

Moreover, the episode delves into the collaborative dynamics of ketamine-assisted psychotherapy sessions. Learn how therapists work together to set intentions and create supportive environments tailored to each client's needs. Whether clients prefer to process their experiences internally or express them in real-time, the team approach ensures a nonjudgmental, empowering space for healing. Concluding with heartfelt advice for loved ones considering this treatment, we also express our excitement for the next episode, which will feature a client's personal experience with ketamine-assisted therapy. Don't miss out—subscribe or follow us for more enlightening conversations on your wellness journey.

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Speaker 1:

Welcome back, friends, to the Telewellness Hub podcast. I'm Arna Hamilton, your host. This is a space where listening is not just a simple passive act. It's an act of self-care. And today is part two of a special series that we're doing on ketamine-assisted psychotherapy, and today's guest includes Jordan Wilson.

Speaker 1:

Jordan Wilson is a counseling resident based out of Virginia, and she is an amazing person to come in here and share with us a little bit about what it looks like, as a counseling resident, to see her clients using ketamine-assisted psychotherapy. She works with children and teens ages eight and older, as well as young adults, to use as an integrative and strength-based approach, looking at ways in which resilience has shown up in the face of obstacles in life. Welcome, jordan. Thanks so much for joining today. Thank you so much for having me. I'm, you know, so curious.

Speaker 1:

I've shared with this in part one with crystal she. She is the practice owner where you guys are uh, work together. The life works professional counseling there in virginia and I shared how. What an amazing opportunity to to train in this and I can only imagine, as a resident, the opportunity to see it in action. Um, I've never seen ketamine assisted psychotherapy, so for me, I'm genuinely very interested in learning more and, like many listeners, it's a new concept, definitely integrative with integrated medicine. I mean just a wonderful opportunity to blend different modalities for people's health and wellness. My first question, as it is to all guests, is why do you do this mental health and wellness work that you do?

Speaker 2:

What an excellent question. For me, what first got my interest into the mental health field in general was meeting people in my life who struggled with mental lives, specifically for those who were often silenced or censored or just really told that they were too much. That was something I experienced a lot of my childhood and adolescence, and being able to be a part of a healing journey where people can kind of reclaim that narrative.

Speaker 1:

Oh yes, hello, Hi, we're being joined. Now we have another special guest, tabitha Woodson. Hi, tabitha. We'll share a little bit about Tabitha's background in a second, and right now Jordan was just sharing a little bit about why she does the wellness work that she does, sharing about how shame noticed. You know the impact of shame. So thanks for joining.

Speaker 2:

I'll do a little introduction in a second too but the way that shame kind of rears its ugly head and puts its roots so deep into us for such a young age and being able to see people, whether they're teenagers or adults, kind of reclaiming that and being able to access a nurturance and a feeling that was always present within themselves, and my heart grieves for those who got the wrong message somewhere along the way. And so, for me, a big reason why I do this is helping people through various approaches, including ketamine-assisted therapy. Helping people through various approaches, including ketamine-assisted therapy, as a way to access that core version of ourselves before shame, hatred, trauma and being silenced got in the way.

Speaker 1:

Thanks so much for sharing that. You know, shame has come up a lot in terms of research and just also reasons people seek out therapy. There's just Shane is just so powerful. So to be able to find modalities, tools to overcome that, I mean I love asking the question why people do the work that they do. I think we spend a lot of years learning like what tools and how to do things. But you know, I think it's really cool to get down to providers, like their heart and like why, what drives them, you know, to to help others in their health and wellness journey, absolutely so. Today's guest also includes Tabitha Woodson. Tabitha is a licensed professional counselor, also at LifeWorks Professional Counseling, based out of Virginia. She is a veteran with 16 years of service to our country, as well as a trauma-informed therapist, and we're going to get to gain some insight about what ketamine-assisted therapy looks like for her clients at this group practice. Thank you so much, tabitha. Welcome as well.

Speaker 3:

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1:

So same question for you why do you do the health and wellness and mental health that you do?

Speaker 3:

That's really really, really deep question. Deep and kind of personal for me. What brought me on this journey is that suffering. The reason why I do this is because so many people are suffering, because so many things has happened to them over the course of their life right, especially women and they don't know how to manage that. And it can take away your voice, right, it can cause us to suffer in silence. So for me, it was a personal journey on how I got here. I did spend many years in the military military. I somehow ended up taking on helping people, especially women, that were struggling with different things. So for me, it's helping people like relieve some of the suffering that they are experiencing A lot of it started in childhood and helping a lot of people like, especially women, get their voice back.

Speaker 3:

Like. That is so important to me because we can lose ourselves and our work and our families and all the different roles that we play. So throughout the my journey in counseling, I started out working with children and their families and just going into the home and first trying to work with children. They recognize that I need to back up. It's the parents. It's the parents and a lot of these, the children in the population that I worked with in the past.

Speaker 3:

It was a lot of single family homes where the mother was in charge and they were suffering from depression and anxiety and trauma and it's like how can you rear children when you yourself are suffering? So that just spoke to me and that just started my journey on just helping people. And don't get me wrong, I work with men and children. The youngest for me now is 12. Helping them, too, with just learning how to speak up, learning that there is, it is hope and that you can get better and you can get well. So for me, it's all about helping people regain their voice and just learn how to live life right, live life and that's the journey.

Speaker 3:

Joy taking that journey with my clients yes, it's such an honor.

Speaker 1:

I often tell people you know I mean our job. We get to walk our. You know the path for people to see them in their, in their healing journey, and you both bring up just bringing people into being able to step out of a place of shame and suffering and find their voice, and and um, I think that's that's just so honorable that you two dedicate um your lives, and how interesting that you both have a heart also for working with children, either originally, and that's that's yeah, yeah's, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

And um yeah, I feel like it made me wonder about questions specifically with like trauma, informed and shame and childhood, which might be a different, maybe a different interview to plan? Um, yeah, but I think absolutely when you, you share, um, it's so important and I think that therapeutic relationship really speaks a lot in terms of you know, if anyone's listening and considering finding a therapist, I think finding the right fit is so important.

Speaker 1:

It's important to find who you, who resonates with you, and you know we spend a lot of time with our training and people really bring themselves authentically. Also, providers do. They bring themselves authentically to their clients to help facilitate the journey. So thank you so much for both of you being vulnerable and sharing your personal heart in this matter.

Speaker 1:

So I appreciate that. I guess my first question for you in terms of ketamine-assisted psychotherapy is what are some of the benefits that you see? You know, as providers at this clinic, we talked- in part one of this series with Crystal.

Speaker 1:

She talked us through all the steps and so if you haven't listened to part one, you might want to back up, listen to part one of the series. She really walks us through what is ketamine, what it does a session look like, from receiving the medication by mail and the different steps and what it looks like and how it acts on the body, down to like the half-life and the processing, and what to expect from the session For you both. It sounds like you both get to sit in on sessions for your clients while they do the ketamine-assisted therapy. So what are some of the benefits that you have seen as a provider at a clinic that can provide ketamine-assisted therapy? From your perspective as a therapist, how does it benefit your clients?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, I think the role that I play is being there and being that support for my clients, because my clients they know me and I think that the role that I play in this is helping them relax Right, because a lot of them are really extremely anxious about it. It's so new right. So I'm doing like calming exercises and helping them get into it and I think what I've seen I've only had a few sessions. What was so wonderful about it with my client is that a lot of what she went through she was able just to let go right and get out of her brain her thinking brain, yeah and get into herself her body Right, and she would have a hard time doing that and talk therapy and with me trying to do all the other interventions and this, it just it helped her to kind of let go right and that's helped her with like being able to just know that it's okay to release and I felt like trust.

Speaker 3:

This client had difficulty with trusting, so I think that it was just. It was a beautiful experience. I'm going to be honest, I was amazed because some of the relaxation and the ease that I saw it took me a while to get there and just traditional therapy. So being able to have this for clients that are suffering with trauma and that depression like that, that heavy depression, I would call it that depression that keeps clients in the bed and keeps them unmotivated.

Speaker 3:

I feel, I feel like this is a cycle, another therapy that we that is available at our clinic to help clients that are struggling.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

Oh, go ahead.

Speaker 2:

I'm sorry I'm going to piggyback off of what Tabitha said. The part that astounds me the most is the disarming that it's able to do for clients which, just like tabitha said, can take three years in more traditional talk psychotherapy like. What I'm always amazed by is how ketamine is able to deliver such a personalized, mystical experience. So whether that's a metaphor, whether that's an image, whether it's a body sensation, the ketamine medicine knows how to deliver that message that may take a therapist, even with the most amazing relationship with the client, three years to get there.

Speaker 2:

And when clients are in that space and are able to experience this mystical experience and, for the first time, you know, may come to conclusions like experience this mystical experience and for the first time, you know, may come to conclusions like, oh, it really wasn't my fault and just to be able to be in that space with them, as it disarms common defenses that we have.

Speaker 2:

You know a little bit about me and one of the things that helped me get into the mental health field was I attended counseling myself and for me, especially in the beginning of my own counseling journey, I maybe was considered like an intellectualizer, so when I would experience or talk about pain it was through the lens of, oh, this person hurt me because they have trauma, or I experienced this abuse because that person grew up in an abusive home, and I would use this more intellectual background to justify the pain that had happened, as opposed to just sitting with the pain and actually letting myself feel that emotion. Ketamine has such a way of disarming that for the clients that I see, and to me that's a remarkable process that is able to be delivered in such a short space.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, able to be delivered in such a short space. A short amount, yeah, yeah. Well, how amazing for you to also. You have the training, you have the background, you're doing traditional therapy and there's a, there's a space for that, right.

Speaker 1:

Um, it sounds like you know you still utilize that, those modalities that you might learn absolutely right um other tools, but how amazing and reaffirming to hear from clinicians that utilize those to get to sit in and facilitate these. It sounds like it's a really collaborative approach. You're there, you can have that continuity, there's trust for the client. It's someone they can rely on, right Like I know this person, I can rely on them. They're going to guide me, they're going to support me, as they have throughout this time. They know me, they know my feelings, my thoughts, my beliefs, my journey so far. How reaffirming about the power of it, um, to see that you, that you guys, know the client through the lens of traditional therapy and to also see how this ketamine assisted sessions can really transform, it sounds like, really in ways that are visible and and understood through their sharing of the experience.

Speaker 1:

That's really incredible to hear. I bet it's very powerful and transformative for people, especially you know this in part one of the series, crystal Sherley, there's people with medication resistant depression, like you mentioned, you know, just not being able to get out of bed, like how wonderful to have a hope. Hope is so powerful to know. You know, maybe there's hope that there is a method that could really help me.

Speaker 1:

You know we can look at this biologically, through the chemistry, in addition, with the support of talk therapy. I think that's really powerful to even have hope for that. You guys mentioned, you know, being there to help people be at ease too. So what are some common fears or concerns? People listening might be like okay, well you know, like I don't know if I'm ready for something mystical. What does that look like Like?

Speaker 3:

what are some?

Speaker 1:

common fears or concerns about ketamine-assisted therapy that have come up with your clients.

Speaker 3:

I think it's just the fear of the unknown. What's going to happen, what would the experience be like? And not knowing that and feeling like they won't be able to be in control of what's going on. A lot of clients have trouble, you know, with giving up the control and having that fear of that and I think that some I don't know, I can only go, my experience is very limited. I want to say that it was a very powerful experience, but I think what I'm, what I'm in the fear of, like being scared. I think the anxiety part is the part that I think most clients will initially experience, which is normal and is expected, and I think by having us in there, as the therapist, like that knows, this client and our clients feel safe with us. I think it's another support that we give, that they can trust this process and we're there right To guide them through it and that it's safe. We're not going to let any harm come to them. Like Crystal is trained in it and you know she knows what to do. She's following the protocol.

Speaker 1:

She's incredible.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it's amazing. Yeah, Crystal is really amazing and she knows her job. So for me it's just I think it's just the anxiety part, the fear of the unknown, what is going? To happen and how I'm going to feel afterwards, too right, like what might come up late, right, yeah, and that's why I think Jordan and I come in a lot is that, because of the continuity, we can help support them with what comes up later and Crystal is also available, you know, for what can happen after our leave session.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

You know I asked this question only because you know for many people listening, maybe they've thought about this or considered it, but it sounds like that fear of the unknown, of losing control. I see that come up with clients when they say I've never been a therapy, thought about this or considered it, but it sounds like that fear of the unknown of losing control. I see that come up with clients when they say I've never been a therapy Like I don't know what to expect. What is this going to?

Speaker 1:

be, like I've. I've wanted to have been curious for years, but I didn't know, or even when.

Speaker 3:

I.

Speaker 1:

I am not trauma informed. I'm not. I don't specialize in trauma. I don't have EMDR certifications, for example. So I I will refer clients to an EMDR specialist, but some people will say I don't know if. I'm ready to to see what's going to come up with EMDR, you know. So I think, yeah, it's being able to probably the unknown, the fear of of of not.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I could see how that could happen in many ways within therapy and it sounds like what's so wonderful. Is you, as clinicians who have worked with these clients similar to when I might say you know what I think you're ready to consider this as a really effective tool? Ready to consider this as a really effective tool? And you know the I would be doing you a dis favor by, not a disservice, by, not mentioning to you it. This has happened for me that there's this tool available that I think you could really benefit from.

Speaker 1:

So I'm hopeful that anyone listening to this who maybe has some of those, those concerns, that they know that's normal, that that's a that's a normal thing too, and, um, to be like, I don't know if I don't know about this, but being able to really have a clinician, a therapist that you trust, that, um, you feel supported by, is like train, their, their, their, their. This is their area of specialty, this is what they dedicate their life to, right, it's really important to to find that and that it could be a really beneficial thing and cause I'm I'm curious. You know you're saying some really incredible things, like how people have you've seen really incredible benefits. Can you share a little bit about, so they go into the session. They might have some concern. You're there to provide a supportive, safe space. What are some things that you have seen in terms of how this benefits clients? What has surprised you?

Speaker 2:

I think. So a big part for me. What I usually bring into, especially the integration sessions that happen after they've been administered, the ketamine is incorporating I use a little bit of internal family system techniques and which is looking at the different parts of ourselves and how they protect us, how they manage us and even some of those core wounds that we keep hidden deep within us. And ketamine is such. I've been so surprised at how hand in hand those two approaches go together and seeing different parts come up during the administering of ketamine, or like deeper access to those wounds that we try to protect and hide from ourselves. So it's exactly what Tabitha was saying. You know, those anxious parts come up. Oh, I don't know if I'm ready for this. Oh, that we try to protect and hide from ourselves.

Speaker 2:

So it's exactly what Tabitha was saying those anxious parts come up. Oh, I don't know if I'm ready for this. Oh, I don't know if I'm going to lose control and, depending on my relationship with the client, I'll kind of be like yeah, that's the point. That's kind of the deal is to disarm some of those defenses, allow yourself to be in the space where all parts can come forward. And you know, because of the relationship that you and the client have together, that you'll be able to put some of those pieces together. Oh, this part came up here, this memory resurfaced and just the way that, like all the different modalities, like even narrative therapy, I find is very useful when working in these sessions. So that has honestly been a huge part. That's surprising to me, and the ability to have the session after the academy, like within 24 hours the next day, to incorporate some of the things that we talked about in earlier sessions.

Speaker 2:

Like wow, that really came up this time. And let's process, and let's go even deeper with that to connect some dots or messages that you may have received through some like mystical imagery or body sensations that you felt at that time how wonderful to have that continuity.

Speaker 1:

Um, you know, and I and I realized I didn't I didn't ask this because also when with that, in terms of those concerns or fierce people who might be considering this, I'm hopeful this series really helps people, really paints a picture of what it is on all levels and the experiences, because part of the series too, we'll actually get to talk to some clients who have gone under, have gone through um ketamine, assisted psychotherapy sessions. So, um, one question I didn't ask is do you, are you guys, talking to your clients during the session, you asking questions? Are they guiding you? What is it crystal? I'm curious. Are you sitting there just kind of watching, observing? Does it depend? I guess I have a lot of questions too yeah, yeah, um, I think it's a combination.

Speaker 3:

like we work together, like at the start of the session, like we ask the client to like kind of state their intentions so we can get a sense of what they are hoping to achieve in that session, and then I think we work well together because it is a team approach. Crystal does a lot of the guiding and then I think for me I just she'll start the guiding and I'll just jump in and we'll continue with the flow. And yeah, we do process and like what, what kind of whatever comes up. A lot of times the client will leave once they say what the intentions and is, and they will continue with that, that conversation.

Speaker 2:

So yeah, absolutely, I think, and going off that it depends in terms of like what the client also wants in that session.

Speaker 2:

So I know I've had clients who are much more internal processors. So when they're actually experiencing the dissociative ketamine experience or perhaps the mystical imagery some clients prefer like internal, like they might put on headphones or they might put on the sleep mask and kind of leave that part to themselves, and then when they're ready within that three hour period, then they may share well, I saw this or this experience came up. Share, well, I saw this or this experience came up. Having said that, I do know other clients who are more expressive as it's happening, as they're seeing the imagery in front of them or experiencing the body sensation. They're naming it as it's happening. So there is a lot of ebb and flow and I think especially what you were saying, tabitha, the team approach that comes between us and still being able to take exchange, taking the oh no, I remember in psychotherapy they mentioned this. I wonder if this is what they're talking about with this imagery or this memory.

Speaker 2:

So, being able to have that ebb and flow with Crystal is amazing and artful.

Speaker 3:

It is yeah, yeah. I think, with my experience, the client was more expressive. She was like more talkative, which was good. So we was able to address some things that, like the deep wounds that Jordan was mentioning earlier, think it does. It will vary because each experience is different, because, of course, each client is different, yeah, but I like the flow and that's why I like the team approach. I really do. You know, it's a lot of experience that's in that room at that time and not only that.

Speaker 3:

but yeah, a lot of just caring um empathy, like empathetic um, you know, and it's just so much of that that's in that room and clients can feel it you know, and I think, as they are more and more in the experience, I think that helps them with relaxing and opening up.

Speaker 3:

So I think it's awesome, like from it's like Jordan and I we would talk about, like our different experiences in the room and, like she said, each is is amazing, like it truly is amazing and, like I said, I've only been doing it a short time, but, like you know it's incredible.

Speaker 1:

I told Crystal this place sounds like an amazing group practice, honestly, but how empowering for your clients. You know there's not enough. You know, in, I feel like in society and there's just not a lot of opportunities to sit for hours in a space that you feel completely supported, validated, empowered, guided with people in a collaborative in harmony, if you will, and experience component that you mentioned really taking on that mentor, you know, in terms of really there to support you. I think that sounds really incredible.

Speaker 1:

I just like really just really inspired and admire that approach that you all are part of. My last question for you for today would be if you were talking to a close loved one who is considering ketamine assisted therapy, what would you say to them about it? Just briefly, you know, like they're like, I'm thinking about it. What would you say?

Speaker 2:

I think I would say you are worth the time and space to dedicate to this.

Speaker 3:

Yes, get ready, and I'm so excited for you yes, that is so beautiful, jordan so beautiful, and I I will have to just just um piggyback off of that. It's definitely work. You are worth it, a person as a person, um to engage and embark upon that journey. Yeah, and the one thing I like the way that you summarized it, marta, because it is a very supportive and nonjudgmental space, right, mm-hmm? So definitely, yeah, I would tell my loved ones, yes, you're definitely worth it, mm-hmm, yes yes, well, thank you both tabitha and jordan, for joining today.

Speaker 1:

I feel so inspired for our from our conversation, and I'm sure a lot of listeners are as well. I'll make sure to include in the show notes how people can connect with you. And this is part two of the series, so the next one if you're listening right now, make sure sure you subscribe or you follow for the next one where we get to talk with a client who's gone through ketamine assisted therapy. And, tabitha and Jordan, thank you so much for being a part of our wellness journey today.

Speaker 3:

Thank you, I appreciate it. Yes, all righty.